哈，我覺得不足為信。

因為汀州客的客還是kh-而不是h-

广东像丰顺等地也是说khak-ka，兴宁说hak-ka。h应该是从kh演变来的。客家名称中存在kh-h交替是比较普遍的，但福佬名称是否有类似的h-kh交替则不清楚。似乎没有见过khok-lo。

原帖由 鴻雁於飛 於 2009-4-29 12:26 發表
哈，我覺得不足為信。

因為汀州客的客還是kh-而不是h-

从 「...畲族称汉族则是"xa31lu35"（哈佬）...」这段话里，好像是说某些畲语里有类似北方汉语的清軟顎擦音(voiceless velar fricative)，是介于/h/及/k/中间的辅音。闽南语（环境）的（环）有这种现象，有人念/huan/，也有人念/khuan/。

另外，维基百科里（http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/畲语），或是拜访畲人的（山哈）网络3haah.com，都看得出（哈）/xaʔ5/有塞喉音。这跟台式的（福佬）的（福）或（客家）的（客）是用塞喉音是一样的。我想，畲语对于离析闽南语白话的塞喉音历史来源是会有帮助的。

原帖由 limkianhui 於 2009-4-16 00:07 發表
啥物儂做好心，來共樓頂即帖（18＃）翻譯一下，通互我看較有。感謝！

真厚工咧！我沓沓仔來。。。先翻頭一篇。

（糟糕，贴好了我才发现我看错了，你要的是#18，明天再做了，sorry。）

Tour in Borneo
婆罗门之旅

We paid our respects to the headman, who received us with politeness, though we thought we observed feelings of not the most perfect cordiality. He spoke Malay badly, and the Fuhkeen dialect of the Chinese not at all. One of his attendants spoke a little Fuhkeen. From him, and from another man whom we met in the street, and who spoke both better Malay and Fuhkeen, we gathered the following items of information, viz: that Pumangkat was founded about nine years since; that most of the inhabitants speak the Kheh dialect, that many Hok-lo men are intermingled with them; that the number of inhabitants somewhat exceeds 1000; that there are some readers among the adults; and that the principal article of produce is rice, which is consumed by the growers. The inhabitants have every appearance of being very poor.

我们拜访了当地首长，他有礼貌地接待了我们，但是我们觉得他并不是真的那么亲切。他的马来语很糟糕，福建话更完全不会讲。他有一位助手会讲一点福建话。从这位先生，及另一位我们在街头上碰到并更会讲马来语及福建话的先生，我们得到了以下的资讯：像邦戛（Pumangkat）是九年前立村，像大多数居民是讲客家话，像很多福佬人跟他们杂居在一起，像当地人口稍微超过一千人，像有些成年人识字，像当地主产为耕田者自己食用的稻米。当地居民看起来就是很穷的样子。

----

From our friend and others, we gathered the following information concerning the number of inhabitants. Malays 6000, Bugis 5000, Fuhkeen and other Chinese 100 families, Hok-lo 1000 families, Kheh 500 families. The whole number of Chinese is reckoned at from 3000 to 4000. The entire population of Pontianak is put down at about 15,000. The Fuhkeen and Hok-lo dialects are so similar that communication is free and unembarrassed. In the vecinity of Pontianak, there is said to be a number of Chinese engaged in the cultivation of rice. The Bugis and Malays are supposed to be on the increase. The resident informed us that the nearest Dayaks are distant about two days' journey. The headman of the Fuhkeen people and others, to whom we made known our design of returning and settling at Pontianak, seemed much pleased. In Pontianak, there are only two Chinese schools, one of the Kheh, the other of the Fuhkeen men. The Hok-lo class have no school.

从我们这位朋友及其他人士，我们得到了以下关于当地人口的资讯。马来人6000人，布吉人5000人，福建及其他华人100个家庭，福佬人1000个家庭，客家人500个家庭。华人总数共约3000至4000人。坤甸市（Pontianak）总共人口约计为15，000人。福建话及福佬话类似到了能自由及自然地互相沟通。在坤甸市附近，听说有些种稻田的华人。布吉人及马来人好像人数越来越多。当地居民告诉我们，最接近当地的达雅土著（Dayak）住在差不多离两天行程的地方。当地福建人及其他人的首长明白了我们想回来坤甸市定居的计划后，都非常高兴。在坤甸市只有两所中文学校，一所为客家人学校，另一所为福建人学校。福佬群族并没有自己的学校。

[ 本帖最後由 tadpole 於 2009-4-29 16:50 編輯 ]

18# 翻译

Of all the books I downloaded from Internet Archive with references to "hok-lo", George MacKay （馬偕) was the first one to use it to clearly refer to Minnan-speaking people in Taiwan in his book From Far Formosa of 1895, the year Taiwan was yielded to Japan by the Treaty of Shimonoseki (馬關條約). Another book called Pioneering in Formosa by W. Pickering (必麒麟） in 1897 also said the same thing. There's an earlier book of 1884 by the name of "The Children of China" that seems to use hok-lo to refer to people in Fujian. But it may just refer to people around Shantou.

Snapshots from three books are included here first. Those from other books will be posted later.

Tim

在我从网络档案（Internet Archive)下载有关英语福佬"hok-lo"的书籍内，马偕（George MacKay）是第一个清楚地将此词在他1895年的“From Far Formosa”（从遥远的福尔摩莎）一书当中用在台湾讲闽南语的群族上，同年台湾是因为马关条约而被割让与日本。另一本为1897年必麒麟（W. Pickering）名为“Pioneering in Formosa"(在福尔摩莎拓荒）的书，也提到同样事情。还有另一本更早1884年的"The Children of China"(中国的孩子们）的书似乎用英语福佬hok-lo来称呼福建居民。但是也有可能只是用来称呼汕头附近的居民。

在此我先贴上这三本书的摘照。其他的书我以后再贴。

Tim

----------
Children from China

The race who lived in Kwang-tung before these other tribes came are called Punti. They are much more polished than the tribes who have come since, but they are very deceitful and cannot be trusted at all. They are very proud of being such an old race, and of their language, which they say is the oldest form of Chinese, the same that was spoken in the time of the Emperor Yu.

The Hoklo are a tribe who live in Fukien, and speak a dialect which none of the tribes near them understand at all; they live chiefly on the coast and along the sides of rivers; they are very fierce and unmanageable. In looks they are more like the Chinese than any of the other tribes I have told you of; their skin is nearly the same colour, being of a fair yellowish tint; they are like the Chinese too in having brown eyes, not quite straight, and in their hair, which is coarse, glossy, and straight. The Hakka and the Punti have much darker skins.

All these small tribes get to be more and more like the Chinese in their character; wherever Chinamen are found, these small races copy them in their manners and customs and religion.

In the Island of Hainan (which province does that belong to?) is a tribe called the Li. They live in the mountains of Hainan, while the Chinese live in the plains. Very little is known about them; they seem to be something like the mountain races that live in the north-west of India.

"The Children of China"(中国的孩子们）
广东当地在其他土著来之前的人种称为本地人。这群族比后来移来的其他土著要高等多，但是这些人非常奸诈根本就不能让人信任。这些人非常骄傲他们是古老的种族，也非常骄傲他们的语言，依据他们说，是最古老的汉语，是尧帝时代所用的话。
福佬人是居住在福建的土著，他们所讲的方言在他们附近的其他土著没人听得懂。他们主要分布在海边及河边。这群族非常凶悍也很难管理。他们的长相比其他我所提过的土著看来要较像汉人。他们的肤色几乎是同样的，稍微带点黄色的色底。就像汉人一样，他们有同样的稍为斜眼的褐色眼睛，同样的又直又粗又亮的头发。客家人及本地人的肤色要黑得多。
全部这些少数土著的特征都越来越像汉人。凡是有汉人的地方，这些群族会效仿汉人的习惯，风俗及宗教。
在海南岛（归属于那一省？）有个称为黎族的土著。这族居住在海南的山区里，而汉人住在平原。有关此族的资料非常少，他们似乎有点像居住在印度西北方山区的人种。

-------

From Far Formosa

...home of tribes of wild, roaming savages, whose appearance was strange to them, and whose speech was rude and barbarous. Their entrance was disputed at every point, but their greater numbers and superior skill prevailed. The savages were driven back out of some of the richest plains; rice-farms and tea plantations took the place of forest tangle and wild plateau; the rude hamlets of another race vanished; towns and cities with their unmistakable marks of the "Middel Kingdom" took their place; and the Chinese became a superior power in Formosa. They are in the main industrious and aggressive, showing all the characteristics of their race, and retaining their ancestral modes of life and worship. The large majority have emigrated from the Fu-kien province, and speak what is called the Amoy dialect. These are called Hok-los. A few are the descendants of a tribe who moved from the north of China and settled in parts of the Canton province, whence they afterward cross to Formosa. These are called Hak-kas ("strangers"), with distinct forms of life and language.

... that they will treat the aborigenes with fairness. The following table will show the ethnology of the people:

Mongolian -> Chinese -> Hok-los & Hak-kas
Malayan -> Aborigines -> Pe-po-hoan & Sek-hoan & Lam-si-hoan & Chhi-hoan

...There are nearly three million Chinese on the island. Of these about one million are in the four districts served by the Mission of the Presbyterian Church in Canada. They are divided into two classes, the Hok-los and the Hak-kas. The Hok-los comprise seven eighths of the Chinese population in North Formosa. They are emigrants, or the children of emigrants, from the Fu-kien province, opposite the island. After Koxinga, the Chinese pirate, drove the Dutch out of Formosa, that rich and beautiful island was opened up for Chinese emigration, and became an outlet for the overcrowded province of Fu-kien. They found it inhabited by aboriginal tribes who, though they were friendly to the Dutch, resisted the aggressiveness of the Chinese. Gradually the Chinese crowded these aborigines back into the mountains, and they themselves now occupy the large and fertile plains on the north and west. Besides those who have made their home on the island, between ten and twenty thousand come over every year from Amoy to engage in the tea industry. Of these a percentage remain. The Chinese in Formosa have all the marks of their countrymen in Fu-kien, except that emigration has done its work in changing somewhat their customs and point of view. They speak the Amoy dialect. The women bind their feet and wear the same dress as Amoy.

（从遥远的福尔摩莎）

...是当地未开化，活跃的野蛮人的家。野蛮人的长相他们看起来很奇怪，语言也粗鲁及野蛮。他们的进入在各地都受到反抗，但是他们人数及技巧的优势最后占上风。野蛮人因此被赶出平原沃土。稻米农田，及茶园取代了一些混乱的森林及野生的高原。他族简陋的村庄消失了，被中国式独特风格的城镇取代。汉人就这样成为了台湾的霸权。他们大多都很拼命努力及气势汹汹，是他们种族的特征，也保存了祖先的生活方式及信仰。他们大多数是从福建移民过来，讲的是名为厦门话的方言。他们叫做福佬人。另有一些从中国北方南迁定居于广东一带的群族后裔接再渡海来台湾。这些人叫做客家人（陌生人），有自己独特的生活习惯及语言。

...该公平对待原住民。以下列表显示这些群族的人种分别。

蒙古人种 -〉 汉人种 -〉 福佬 & 客家
马来人种 -〉 原住民 -〉 平埔番 & 熟番 & 南势番 & 生番

...岛上有将近三百万汉人。其中大约一百万人居住在加拿大长老教差会服务的四个地区。他们分成两类，福佬人及客家人。福佬人占约北台湾汉人的八分之七。他们是从本岛对岸的福建过来的移民或者后代。在汉人海盗郑成功将荷兰人从台湾驱逐后，这个富产美丽的岛开放汉人移民，变成了拥挤的福建省的输出口。他们发现当地已有原住民居住，虽然这些原住民对荷兰人友善，对来势汹汹的汉人却反抗。汉人慢慢地将原住民排挤回山区，而现在已占掠了北方及西方的大平原沃土。除了在本岛当地定居为家的群众，每年还有一万至两万人从厦门来经营茶业，其中一部分会留下来。台湾的汉人有跟他们福建同胞的全部同样的特征，除了一些因为移民而产生的不同习俗及观点。他们讲厦门话。女人有绷脚和穿着跟厦门女人一样的衣服。

--------

（今天翻译到此，明天再翻译最后一段书摘。）

[ 本帖最後由 tadpole 於 2009-5-2 00:04 編輯 ]

Emperor Yu，是帝尧还是帝禹呢？

感觉从粤语拼写看，这两个都有可能的样子。

感謝tadpole 共咱鬥翻譯，有影真厚工，ló͘-la̍t  ló͘-la̍t !!!

＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝

所以，福建閩南中心地帶，應該的確不存在類似“福佬”（hoklo, holo, holoh ......）這樣的稱謂。從以前到現代都沒有。那些“福佬”（hoklo, holo, holoh ......）的說法只存在廣東、台灣，這是確定的，而且從來就有。此外，還可能存在於福建平和南靖詔安這些閩省偏遠地帶（重點是這裡與客家共居）。

原帖由 limkianhui 於 2009-5-1 09:35 發表
感謝tadpole 共咱鬥翻譯，有影真厚工，ló͘-la̍t  ló͘-la̍t !!!

＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝

所以，福建閩南中心地帶，應該的確不存在類似“福佬”（hoklo, holo, holoh ......）這樣的稱謂。從以前到現代都沒有。那些“福佬”（hoklo, holo, holoh .. ...

我觉得事情已经很清楚了。”福佬“类名称是畲族对他族的称呼，跟“山哈”，“客家”，”哈佬“等等的来源意思大同小异。至于闽南中心有没有这种称呼过，比较难讲。不过漳州历史上是原本畲族的大本营。这从宋代“漳州谕畲“的记录就可以知道。

我这几天看了山哈畲族的一些网络论坛，我个人的感觉是”哈佬“类对汉人称呼历史会远远超过”福佬“。”福佬“可能可以往上推个几百年，”哈佬“就可能要往上推个上千年。我的意思是，尽管漳州一带较汉化的群族自己不叫”福佬“，可能是逃不了被较没汉化的畲族称为”哈佬“或”福佬“。

这是一首畲族儿歌：摇呵摇,嫁女嫁聚头,聚头倒,嫁豪佬 ,豪佬 不好嫁山哈,山哈不要嫁乞食,乞食不要该该杀了吃.....

我也看到了一些畲族人对（福佬）（哈佬）两词分不太清楚。http://www.shezu.net/666/dispbbs.asp?boardid=10&Id=7394

畲族历史看起来大约是这个模式：（一）福建当地山多群族也多，台湾本身就有两打以上语言不能相通的群族，福建情况不会比台湾好。所以我下面讲的只是大群族。小群族是算不了的。（二）原本史记汉书的闽族应该类似苗瑶族，后来被稍微汉化的畲族取代为该地最大族。这跟闽人入海，及徒其众于江淮之间这些历史事情或者有关。（三）因为汉人统治的关系，部分畲族更一步汉化。造成畲族一族两语。这跟苏格兰的情况应该类似。今天所谓的苏格兰语（Scottish/Scots/Scottish English）其实是英语方言。原本苏格兰土语是另一种语言（Scottish Gaelic）。操原本畲语的群族管操汉化畲语的群族为（山哈）。操原本畲语的群众越来越少，今天基本上没有了。（广东的一些畲族今天用的畲语是比较现代的其他群族的苗瑶语，也不能算是原本畲语）。这种现象造成某些像罗美珍学者们大胆地提出了”畲族没有自己的语言“一论，让一些畲族群众气愤的不得了。今天，几乎全部畲族都自己称为（山哈），（畲）这一称呼只保留成汉人称呼畲族的称呼。在（哈）字开始使用时，也就是更汉化的（客）人，（哈佬）人或（福佬）人名称开始出现的时候。（四）跟畲族杂居在一起的客家人及福佬人，应为常常跟畲族打交道，就开始自己也称呼为（客）人，（福佬）人。在此时的这三个群族都是你中有我，我中有你。尤其客家人和畲族非常难分别，这两族语言几乎是一样的，主要差别是文化上的差别：客家人较汉化，畲族保留下了一些古老习俗及信仰。闽南漳泉地带到了元朝时开始进入现代文明，当地城镇的人跟畲族关系就渐渐不那么密切了。但是住在山区畲族旁边的福佬人及客家人还是很多。（五）这些与畲族杂居的福佬人跟客家人是移民广东的闽南人主要来源。不管从广东人记录也好，外国人记录也好，这些闽南移民看起来都还很落后，甚至不被当成汉人。这群人之间有部分移民台湾。因为台湾主要移民来源为客家及福佬群族，不管如何，（福佬）这个称呼变成一种需要，主要功能是区别于不是客家人的闽南人移民。其实，（客家）人一称呼及把客家人当成汉人群族是近代在广东形成的，民族上（客家）群族成立或许没有问题，但是语言上（客家话）是非常难独立出来的，跟赣语畲语关系都很接近，所以单独用客家话来判断某些群族是否算是客家人是有困难的。很多跟客家人语言能互通的群族并不自己认为是客家人。很多现代语言学者们甚至建议把（客家话）从南方汉语种类中取消掉，用（赣客）方言代替。

畲族的事情，不清楚，也不想多讲。

台湾讲闽南语的族群被称为或自称为“福佬”、广东讲闽语的海陆丰人也被称为或自称为“福佬”，两岸的客家人口中的“福佬”也是指操闽语的族群。这一切，看似都与客家人的存在不谋而合，但根本原因其实就是，“福佬”本来就是源自客家话中对闽语族的称谓。

福建闽南中心带，的确不曾存在“福佬”这种说法（他称是另一回事，反正自称是没有过），因为这里没有客家人。

原帖由 limkianhui 於 2009-5-1 20:20 發表
福建闽南中心带，的确不曾存在“福佬”这种说法（他称是另一回事，反正自称是没有过），因为这里没有客家人。

没有现代式定义的客家人。但是漳州历史如何，我还是不很详细了解。我觉得话不要说得那么紧。我怕的是下面这种情况：漳州开屯的汉人是从西边来的（江西），后来在漳州形成了今天式的客家话及畲语。而泉州的汉人是北边来的，在泉州形成了今天式的闽南语。然后漳州再受到泉州的影响而转用闽南语。为什么我有这样的猜测呢？因为漳州闽南语有（全浊上变去），跟赣客语一样，没阳上声了。泉州及粤语则是八声齐全。说得直接一点，会不会有可能漳州以前全部都是客家人之类？当然那个时代并还没有这个称呼。

今天台湾所谓的福佬人，其实一大部分是（福佬客），就是客家人转型成福佬人。我对漳州历史并不了解，但是事情还没搞清楚前，我宁愿采取比较开放的态度。