Toân-kàu-sū kóng ê Ē-mn̂g-oē, sī Ē-mn̂g-tó sai-lâm-pêng ê khiuⁿ, POJ lóng-sī chiàu chit-khoán khiuⁿ-kháu lâi siá--ê. Sū-si̍t-siōng, tī Ē-mn̂g-tó ê sì-kho·-lìn-tńg, iá-koh ū tsōe-tsōe bô sio-siâng ê khiuⁿ tī--leh, pí-lūn Tâng-oaⁿ-khiuⁿ kah pa̍t-chióng Chiang-tsoân-lām ê khiuⁿ. Chiah-ê khiuⁿ, tsóng--ê lâi-kóng, cheng-chha m̄-sī chin tōa.

Góa khoàⁿ ê hit thò "Ē-mn̂g Bûn-hòa Tsông-su", kóng Ē-mn̂g-oē tng-tang-sî mā bô "j", sī hiah-ê thoân-kàu-sū àn-chiàu "Ngá-sio̍k-thong Si̍p-ngó·-im" kah "Lūi-im Biāu-ngō·" só· kì-tsài ê tsú-im hun-lūi, thiau-kang chiong "j" ùi "l" lāi-té pun--chhut-lâi.  

Góa m̄-bat khoáⁿ-kòe "厦英辞典", chhiú-thâu liân "厦门话新字典" mā bô. Góa bô liáu-kái Douglas in chiah-ê thoân-kàu-sū tī in ê tù-tsok lāi-té kóng-kòe siáⁿ-mi̍h oē. Góa liáu-kái ê tì-sek lóng-sī ùi pa̍t-lâng ê phêng-lūn tit-tio̍h--ê. Só·-í góa chi̍t-sî mā chhōe bô lí beh ti̍h ê chèng-kù.

Put-jî-kò, chiàu lí chit-mái thê-kiong ê tsū-liāu lâi khoàⁿ, góa kám-kak góa hoān-sè ē-tàng iōng chi̍t-kóa si̍t-lē lâi chèng-bêng Douglas só·-kóng--ê oē:

Sometimes, as in the syllables ji, jiau, the forms that are nasal and not nasal are interchanged, for which reason I have in such cases mixed them instead of separating them as usual.

1. Phó·-thong-oē "按、壓、摁", Chiang-chiu-oē kóng "ji̍h", Ē-mn̂g-oē kóng "chhi̍h" kah "li̍h". Tsóng--sī chit-ê "li̍h", ū-ê lâng soah pìⁿ-tsòe ū tài phīⁿ-im ê "ni̍h".

2. Phó·-thong-oē "抓（耳）、撓（腮）", Chiang-chiu-oē kóng "pê"/"jiàu". Ē-mn̂g-oē oân-á ū kóng "pê", "niàu". Āu-piah chit-ê "niàu", thang kóng sī "liàu" ke phīⁿ-im liáu-āu ê kiat-kó.

Kóng kàu "j" kah /dz/ tàu-tóe ū sím-mi̍h chheng-chha, che góa to̍h bô liáu-kái.

Thanks for the info on the current situation around Xiamen. J and dz are two similar sounds, but their difference is hard to describe in simple words only. You should know that the j sound in Minnan is different from the English j sound. For the sound of dz, you can go to http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/adze to listen to see if you can make it out. I tried to show the difference to 楊境韜 before, but he seemed not to be able to make out. Before that I hadn't noticed that some people pronounced j as dz in Taiwan.

Now regarding the claim that the j sound was lost in Xiamen when missionaries arrived there. I don't think so. Douglas described sounds in a quite "narrow" manner. He used "iet" and "ien" instead of "iat" and "ian" to describe the sounds. And indeed I am also in favor of this practice as it reflects the actual pronunciations better. He also said "oa" is better than "wa". I am also in favor of this. The first sound in "oa" is really different from the sound of "u" in words like "gu". In the former, there's a slightly larger lip opening.

Further, I can easily find entries listed under J not found in 彙音妙悟. For example,

jio̍k (cf. chhe̍k), (P. je̍k),  to work up and mold in the hands, as clay; to crumple up, as paper.  jio̍k tsòe-chi̍t-bô‧, to work up into a lump, as clay or dough. jio̍k tsòe-chi̍t-tui, to crumple up, as paper.

The above cannot be found in 彙音妙悟. cf. means "confer" and P. means ZhangPu dialect.

jūn  (R. id.), (T. lūn, as also sometimes A.), moistened; damp, as with rain.  sip-jūn, very slightly softened by damp, as ground, or as some other things. jūn-te̍k, well-watered; full of fresh vigorous health and pretty well off.  jūn-tiông (R.), to mollify the bowels and cure costiveness, as medicine or food.
hō‧--lí jūn-pit (this is to moisten your pen), said to a friend who writes a document for us, on giving him a small sum.

In the above, R. refers to the "reading sound" and id. means "the same".  T. is Tong An and A. is Amoy. So you can see  that both  jūn and lūn existed in Xiamen then, just that lūn was less common. This indicates that the change from j to l was already taken place then.


Tim

[ 本帖最後由 timluo 於 2007-9-18 23:35 編輯 ]

"iet/ien" pí "iat/ian" khah oá si̍t-chè ho‧-im, che tùi Ē-mn̂g-oē lâi kóng khak-si̍t sī án-ne. Chiang-chiu Liông-hái kah Tâi-oân ū-ê só‧-tsāi sī "en/et", tiong-ng bô kài-im "i".

Góa kóng si̍t-tsāi ê tāi-chì hō‧ lí thiaⁿ, chit-mái tī Ē-mn̂g, Tâng-oaⁿ kah Tsôan-chiu chit kak-sì, tāi-pō‧-hūn lâng í-keng bô "j", kan-ta ū "l", in thàu-tóe bōe-hiáu hō‧ "j" chit-ê im.  Ū-ê lâng, lí khah án-tsoáⁿ kà, i to̍h bōe-hiáu--tit, i éng-goán bô hoat-tō‧ hō‧ "j" chit-ê im. Pí-lūn-kóng, chiah-ê lâng leh hō‧ Phó‧-thong-oē "肉" ê sî-tsūn, ē pìⁿ-tsòe "漏"; hō‧ "然" ē pìⁿ-tsòe "兰"; hō‧ "熱" ē pìⁿ-tsòe "樂".

Pronouncing "ien" as "en" is indeed very common now in Taiwan. As to "iet" as "et", it is less common.

The phenomenon of pronouncing "j" or Mandarin "r" as "l" is also very common in Taiwan.

Tim

同安  [e]
     
                       有  :  e, eh   
                     
                       無  :  enn, em/ep, en/et, eng/ek,  

                       例外: gennh  / ge̍nnh


     [gennh/ge̍nnh] sī  同安 té/teh gāi-gio̍h ê lī:

             1. [e] ê phī-im tó-á tsit lī,
            
             2. koh ū phī-im, koh ū tshiok-im ê lī,  tó-á tsit-lī.

    Tsit lī kánn-sī "擬態詞" ?


    [gennh/ge̍nnh] is the oddest exception in 同安:

             1. it is the only nasalized [e-] word,   
            
             2. it is the only nasalized word with glottal stop.

     I suspect it is a "擬態詞"

原帖由 timluo 於 2007-9-19 23:40 發表
Pronouncing "ien" as "en" is indeed very common now in Taiwan. As to "iet" as "et", it is less common.

The phenomenon of pronouncing "j" or Mandarin "r" as "l" is also very common in Taiwan.

Tim ...

Góa kám-kak kóng, lán chit-mái leh kóng ê "iat", sū-si̍t i ê ho·-im éng-kai sī /et/(ū-ê só·-tsāi ho· /iet/), pí-lūn-kóng "热"、“杰”、“哲”、“切”、“揭”、“烈”……

Both "et" and "iet" exist in Taiwan, but "et" is not so common as "en" is in Taiwan. However the situation seems to be more and more common now. The existence of the medial "i" is also quite interesting or confusing. For example, do people still pronounce 宿 as "siok", or just simply "sok" as is common in Taiwan now. The situation with "錄" is also similar, "lio̍k" vs "lo̍k".

Tim

Tsāi góa liáu-kái, 宿 tī Tsoân-chiu ho· "siok", tī Chiang-chiu kah Ē-mn̂g tāi-pō·-hūn ho· "sok"(sió-pō·-hūn lâng ho· "siok").

"錄", tī Hok-kiàn, kan-ta ū lâng ho·-tsòe "lio̍k", m̄-bat thiaⁿ lâng ho· "lo̍k". Sī lín Tâi-oân chiah ū "lo̍k", gún chia kán-ná bô.

Tsāi guá thiann--khiái,   "iet",  "iat", sī bô sâng ê im.  

Guá pat thiann kèr  lâng kóng “杰”kiet" ,  kah Tâng-uann kóng ê "“杰”kiat"  tsiânn-si̍t bô sâng.  

  "煙ien/en", Tâng-uann kóng "煙 ian"

   "嬰 enn", Tâng-uann kóng "嬰 inn"

[ 本帖最後由 Kua 於 2007-9-20 13:18 編輯 ]

Lūn-chin kóng, /iet/ kah /iat/ tiāⁿ-tio̍h bô sio-siâng. /iat/ thiaⁿ--khí-lâi, to̍h chhin-chhiūⁿ Oa̍t-gú (Kńg-tang-oē) ê “日”ia̍h-chiá sī“一”.

Góa chit-tsūn siūⁿ--khí-lâi, éng-kè khak-si̍t ū-iáⁿ pat thiaⁿ-kè /iat/ chit-ê khiuⁿ, put-jî-kò góa bōe-kì-tit he sī tó-lo̍h chi̍t só·-tsāi ê khiuⁿ. Chit-mái lí kóng Tâng-oaⁿ sī chit-ê khiuⁿ, góa lēng-ji̍t chiah koh chim-chiok thiaⁿ khoàⁿ-māi.

“煙”, lí kóng Tâng-oaⁿ sī "ian"...che góa soah bô ìn-siōng, chin-chiàⁿ ū-kàu hāi, khiám-chhài sī góa hī-khang pháiⁿ--khì, góa seng lâi-khì thiaⁿ hō· chheng-chhó, chiah kā lí tàu tsòe chèng-bêng.